Colorado's Amendment 67

[woofwoof]

The child doesn't exist.

Are you freaking kidding me right now

[Shadowstar1922]

The child doesn't exist.

Are you freaking kidding me right now

No, I'm not.

If I plant a seed, and take it out weeks later, am I chopping down a tree? No. I'm taking out a seed.

If I throw away cake batter before I put it in the oven, did I just waste a perfectly good iced and designed cake? No. I'm throwing away freaking cake batter.

As far as I'm concerned, there is no child in there, just a developing fetus. If there was a child in here, the woman would have given birth.

[Tycoon]

But what about the child? In my view it's a selfish thing to do because the child hasn't done anything wrong, so why is it getting punished for a crime committed by someone else? There's always the option of adoption these days so the child can get care and love without the parent. I'm all for people having freedom of choices and opinions, but sometimes some form of intervention is needed.

The woman hasn't done anything wrong. Why should she suffer through a pregnancy she does not want? Plus the mental repercussions.

[Tycoon]

But what about the child? In my view it's a selfish thing to do because the child hasn't done anything wrong, so why is it getting punished for a crime committed by someone else? There's always the option of adoption these days so the child can get care and love without the parent. I'm all for people having freedom of choices and opinions, but sometimes some form of intervention is needed.

The woman hasn't done anything wrong. Why should she suffer through a pregnancy she does not want? Plus the mental repercussions.

Depends whether you believe pregnancy is actually suffering. Now, death on the other hand...

If the child would not be able to survive out of the womb, then is it death?

[Boxorino]

well maybe some people don't want kids. maybe some people don't live in the right circumstances to raise a child. maybe some people don't have the money to buy hospital bills or pain medication. maybe some people don't want to put a potential child up for adoption because of all the stress their potential child could go through. maybe some people, like me, would rather adopt a child or become a foster parent rather than have their own kids.
and don't just be like 'oh, well if they're just going to adopt, they don't need to have sex' because not all sex has to lead to pregnancy. and yes there are things to prevent pregnancy, but accidents are a thing that happens. what are you supposed to do with the baby??? you don't want it. you don't even want to be pregnant in the first place because you tried really hard to prevent this from happening. man, wouldn't it be great if there was a way for you to get rid of the baby that is starting to grow inside you???
can we just let women do what they want please??? pregnancy is painful and if a women doesn't even want a kid, why should we force her to go through the 8 months (the first month isn't rlly that painful) of torture it takes to make a child just so she can put it up for adoption later???

[Shadowstar1922]

well maybe some people don't want kids. maybe some people don't live in the right circumstances to raise a child. maybe some people don't have the money to buy hospital bills or pain medication. maybe some people don't want to put a potential child up for adoption because of all the stress their potential child could go through. maybe some people, like me, would rather adopt a child or become a foster parent rather than have their own kids.
and don't just be like 'oh, well if they're just going to adopt, they don't need to have sex' because not all sex has to lead to pregnancy. and yes there are things to prevent pregnancy, but accidents are a thing that happens. what are you supposed to do with the baby??? you don't want it. you don't even want to be pregnant in the first place because you tried really hard to prevent this from happening. man, wouldn't it be great if there was a way for you to get rid of the baby that is starting to grow inside you???
can we just let women do what they want please??? pregnancy is painful and if a women doesn't even want a kid, why should we force her to go through the 8 months (the first month isn't rlly that painful) of torture it takes to make a child just so she can put it up for adoption later???

I don't get this. In a previous topic, you or Tyc stated that there was no need for men because women can reproduce by themselves.
I'm pretty sure that was a joke.
If you've elevated the importance of reproduction so much, then surely it has to be a good, powerful thing?
I value the importance of team work and cooperation, but I hate working in teams, it's a burden on me to work with people. Just because you see something as important, does not mean that you're all about it and model yourself around that idea. I see reproduction as an important thing, but I am never going to have kids. It's all in who you ask.
And then on here you're saying the opposite, just because a poor woman has to deal with 9 months.
They're not saying the opposite, they're saying women have a right to do what they want to their bodies and choose if they want to take care of a child or not. That's a huge part of your life, it isn't something you brush by.
I get that it's difficult for some women but do they not have a conscience enough to go through some pain if it means saving a life? The government has a good system in place to support all pregnant women, first time parents, and people who want to adopt.
Maybe in your country, but the US adoption system is one of the worst, poorly regulated, and poorly funded systems we have. Kids get abused and discriminated federally and socially at home. Foster parents are known in a lot of parts of the country to beat and murder their foster sons and daughters. They live in horrible houses, too. It's hard to find a food foster home in my state, and in the states surrounding me (New England). And don't even get me started on planned parenthood. Maybe in the liberal states they have good systems, but there's such social stereotypes and pressure to not go, and in the red states (conservative) it's extremely hard to qualify and apply to begin with and once you do, it's not well funded nor efficient.
There are a lot of people that can't conceive and are dying to have a child, so why can't they grant them that wish?
They can adopt. No one is speaking against adoption, nor other methods that they can use to get a child.
Don't know about America, but you don't have to pay any hospital bills here in the UK, and if a child goes to a happy family, then they'll hardly face any stress.
As I've explained above, America doesn't have a good health care or adoption system in place. Foster kids go through a lot and we have a lot of kids in the system.
How much damage is having a child and then giving it up for adoption really going to do to a woman?
They always think about them all the time. The guilt never leaves their mind and usually the child growing up wants to meet her and the father. They eventually do. I mean, my mother left when I was small and she never stops thinking of me. I know, because she writes me letters that I don't reply to (personal reasons) and I've found her facebook and its all about me and my brother and my father. I mean, women take it to different degrees, but it's universally the same. It's a hard thing to kick out of your head.
Compare that with how much damage you'll inflict on the prospective child.
Didn't you say you earlier that the child (in your country) can grow up in a stress free environment with no health troubles and has a good shot of being adopted by a nice couple?
If you'd rather adopt a child then where is that child going to come from if you're all for abortion?

Again, personal choices. A woman who believes in abortions can end up having the child and putting it up for adoption. And, women who are forced to have children because they can't get an abortion is not the only "income" of children in the adoption system. Kids who are taken away from their parents because of abuse, or homeless kids who are picked up by police men or social workers make up a fair portion of the adoption system's child population. Displacement and refugee too.

And @Tyc, the likelihood of a child surviving is higher than that of it not unless there are some different circumstances but that's a different matter.
Okay, you take out a 2 week developed baby and try to breast feed it.

only inserting this because its asking me to.

[Tycoon]

If the child would not be able to survive out of the womb, then is it death?
And @Tyc, the likelihood of a child surviving is higher than that of it not unless there are some different circumstances but that's a different matter.
Okay, you take out a 2 week developed baby and try to breast feed it.
I don't think you understood what I said. I was discussing the likelihood of a child surviving from the womb, not treating dead babies as alive ones.
my literal point was a if a developing foetus is unable to survive outside of the womb, is abortion killing?
if it is at the age where it is able to survive out of the womb, then yes, keep it and give it up for adoption (except in specific circumstances)

[Foopzheart]

After 8 weeks the baby is officially a fetus. I think at that point abortion should not be allowed.

[Shadow00]

Allow me to share my opinion that as long as a person who has yet NOT given birth to her child decides that she doesnt want it, abortion is k.
Better to abort it at 8 months 29 days (well, impossible but this is just stretching it out to show a point) than to have the kid thrown in a garbage can or something to be raised by either city services (ie orphanage) or by sewer penguins (Couldnt not say it, sorry)