Vegetarianism

[Munter]

Once again, it's an infinitely complicated matter...

Firstly, in response to the "But we are omnivores" argument, Just because something is the case doesn't mean it ought to be the case. We also have the ability to kill other humans, but we (most of the time) choose not to. We have the ability to eat meat, just what separates us from animals is we can make a moral choice, a cat can't help but hunt because that's its instinct, we on the other hand can choose not to.

There are alternatives to meat and eating a balanced vegetarian diet can be just as good for you (if not healthier) than a died of meat and veg. It's about proportion.

So, if we are to argue for the eating of meat, it can't be because we can.


There is an argument that without eating cooked meat, our monkey ancestor's brains wouldn't have developed to an extent where he (homo sapiens) would have been possible, so maybe there's an argument there. Maybe meat does provide some things for us that other foods can not. Again this raises difficulties, because once again just because it got us to where we are now (if the argument is to be believed), it does not follow that we should continue with it.


I eat meat, and do so without too much of a problem. I do not believe animals have rights. What I do think is that we as self aware humans have a duty to prevent suffering of animals, and animal cruelty is disgusting. However, there seems to be no sound evidence that animals have a concept of death. They try to resist thing that could kill them, but how much of this is instinct and how much is actual thought?

If evidence shows that animals to have a concept of death, and are self aware, then I will stop eating meat. Until then, I'll continue eating meat.

Although I always avoid processed meat and I try to avoid battery chickens and suchlike. Haven't had a Mcdonald's burger for well over 3 years!

[J3rdegree]

Plants can very well FEEL touches to them. Many experiments have been conducted, from my research. If you put a small fire next to a healthy plant, not enough to set it on fire, but pretty close, the plant will slowly move it's leaves, stem, and flowers away from the fire. A plant on a windowsill. The leaves are positioned to be where the sun is. If you turn it around, the next day or two, the leaves will be back where they're suppose to be.

Plants can very well feel pain, and other, "feelings" you could say. I completely agree with Frank. If you feel bad about eating animals, because they feel the pain, the terror and horror, etc, then you shouldn't eat plants either. they can very well feel it when you rip the part of the plant you want from it, off of them.

The Human Species is a predator. We are a dominant species in our humble earth, which means we eat others for survival. That's how its been for a very long time now. Meat is an essential part of our diet that we need to eat in order to grow properly and healthy. Me hearing how people become vegetarians really bugs me out.

ok, so explain to me this then. if plants and animals both have feelings, and both have can sence pain. then why is it ok to post a video of somone ripping a plant out of the ground then cooking it, but it isnt ok to post a video of somone slaughtering a pig as it squeels and struggles to get away and then ripping its guts out, chopping it up, and grilling it.

one is acceptable by society and one isnt. fighting on the "meat eating" side you say "oh you shouldnt post the vegtable video then" but, the thing is you can and it is 100% accepted by society, as butcheing an animal with so you say the "same feelings" isnt.

[Shadow00]

Plainly stated:
Man since the very start used to eat meat as well as veggies.
Man started eating lots of meat,so man started getting fatter and fatter.
People thought that meat=fat,so let's only eat veggies. That's how it started,at least. Now,there are 3 types of animals. Ones that eat meat, ones that eat veggies,grass etc and the ones that eat both.(I don't really think that it's a coincidence that men and pigs eat both of them). So,it's in our NATURE to eat both meat and veggies. I personally don't believe in ethics,or whatever it's called to feel remorse. Don't really feel bad about that though. Also,2 things:
1) If you don't eat meat,you'll be forced to take medicine to replenish your vitamins.
And I don't think that's "natural"...
2)Talking about that,you know what happens when you go against nature(creating other forms of meat genetically etc)? I believe it's pretty obvious,but my opinions can't really be thought as "right", so I won't go further in this.
Also, Breaking News: We're in a dead end: if we don't eat meat,all the meat eating animals we eat will most likely over-populate and wipe out other animals.
If we do eat meat,we'll most likely wipe out all animals ourselves as we've already overpopulated ourselves. So,we're in a dead end,and no natural solution can apply.
Also,humans (in general) are not the dominant species. About 1000 people lets say,that know how this world works,they are the absolute dominant species.

[J3rdegree]

Plainly stated:
Man since the very start used to eat meat as well as veggies.
Man started eating lots of meat,so man started getting fatter and fatter.
People thought that meat=fat,so let's only eat veggies. That's how it started,at least. Now,there are 3 types of animals. Ones that eat meat, ones that eat veggies,grass etc and the ones that eat both.(I don't really think that it's a coincidence that men and pigs eat both of them). So,it's in our NATURE to eat both meat and veggies. I personally don't believe in ethics,or whatever it's called to feel remorse. Don't really feel bad about that though. Also,2 things:
1) If you don't eat meat,you'll be forced to take medicine to replenish your vitamins.
And I don't think that's "natural"...
2)Talking about that,you know what happens when you go against nature(creating other forms of meat genetically etc)? I believe it's pretty obvious,but my opinions can't really be thought as "right", so I won't go further in this.
Also, Breaking News: We're in a dead end: if we don't eat meat,all the meat eating animals we eat will most likely over-populate and wipe out other animals.
If we do eat meat,we'll most likely wipe out all animals ourselves as we've already overpopulated ourselves. So,we're in a dead end,and no natural solution can apply.
Also,humans (in general) are not the dominant species. About 1000 people lets say,that know how this world works,they are the absolute dominant species.

vegetarianism didn't start as a weight-loss diet, it started with people in the late 1900'ds who saw the meat processing and packaging plants and felt too guilty to eat the meat
and reply to 1) you dont need to take suppliments if you are a vegitarian at all. if you eat protean alternitives (nuts, beans, well rounded cereals, ext.) there is no reason at all to take suppliments
2) who is saying anyone is making genetically altered meat? if you think tofu is made in a lab you are HIGHLY mistaken, tofu is different high-protean plants and grains made into a nearly flavorless hunk, much like a granola bar. everyone is saying the same thing "that we are omnivores so it is natural to eat meat." i dont disagree that we are omnivores, i disagree that there is a need to eat the meat anymore. there are plenty of other ways to get the same nutrients now that erent available in the primitive days when we were still evolving, and we needed to eat meat then to survive, so we adapted as omnivores. As of now we no longer have that primal need, so there is no point in killing animals and devouring their flesh. to the other point there about preditor overpopulation. tell me one natural preditor in the USA that hunts cows spacifically. you might say wolves or cayotes, they would eat a cow sure. but they again NEED the meat, and if they do end up overpopulating over the surplus of new meat, it will regulate because there would eventually be less meat to go around, and their population would decrease due to the lack of food back to normal.

[Shadow00]

Ok,nice talk,but here's the scientific view of this matter.
The first big point I’d like to make is that I’m totally against animal cruelty and I think that the Paleo diet principles align very well with happy and well treated animals. Eating animals that have been well treated, well fed and let free to graze on pastures all day long will also be better for your health because the fat content will be much higher in Omega-3 and you will get the best quality protein without the traces of hormones and antibiotics of factory raised animals.

Who are we as a species, after all, to decide that we should break the natural food-chain? Nature works this way, so we shouldn’t try to mess with the natural order of things. Unfortunately, in order for one living organism to live, another has to die. It’s the natural circle of life and death.

Vegetarians and vegans have to get the bulk of their calories from other sources than meat and often end up eating larger portions of soy, wheat or other grain based products. Tofu, soy milk, breads, pastas, rice, … Those products are toxic and lead to a high carbohydrate load which could lead to chronically high insulin levels, weight gain and diabetes in the long run.

So I don't plan to be a diabetic/overweight person by my 40s,so I'll stick to meat eating...

Also,another point is:
The fact that what’s destroying the environment more than anything right now is our industrial farming practices and especially the big mono-cultures like wheat, corn and soy. Agriculture is the industry that consumes the most oil if you think about all the machinery used and food transportation needed. Therefore, the importance of eating locally produced meat and locally grown vegetables and fruits, when available, is huge.

So in other words,vegetarianism is:
1. Opposite of environment-Friendly
2.Causing diabetes and weight gain in the long run
3. Against nature.

The points stated above were taken by a scientific magazine.

[J3rdegree]

the sad problem with your first point is, that there are next to no farms where livestock is not subjected to animal cruelty.
and many people on this fourm are stating that plants are also living organisms with feelings, so why is it so wrong to kill those organisms instead of the livestock? please keep your point (not refering to you, but this point proves past posts nvalid) and fight with it to the end and stop switching stories/sides.. ANYWHO here are more ways to get the calories than starchy high carb foods. there are plenty of ways to get the same calories/nutrients that come from livestock traditionally besides unhealthy foods. But you stating vegetarians are unhealthy i must make a counter point, although the omega3's in fats are good it is FAT, the lipids in that fat is stored as fat in your body, also if you are eating lean meat it takes out your arguement of omega3's so you are invalid on that topic. proper exercising eating patterns (on both vegetarians and meat eaters) can be in place to keep healthy body mass and nutrient supply.

just ta let ya know, industrial farming also includes livestock which take the same amount of oil to keep alive as crops ESPECIALLY adding in the heating costs durring the winter that needs to be provided in large quantities.
I totally agree that eating localy grown and all organic crops is a very important thing to do if affordable.

and to your list of things:
1) the cost of growing livestock is just as high as crops when heating and food production for the livestock is taken into matter
2) meat can cause the same diabetes and weight gain in the long run if you dont eat the correct amounts and exercise properly
3) give me a valid reason that it it against nature besides "we are omnivores" because we cn get the same nutrients from plants (another thing to add is that the human body naturally needs to adjust to eat and digest meats properly), "the cycle of life" because another animal will end up eating the animals we are thus continuing the cycle of life, and "we evolved this way and are meant to eat meat" because that is stating that we are still primitive beings that dont have all these different types of protien and other nutrients usually found in meats that do not come from a living, breathing, thinking, and equal in brain capacity (a normal pig has the natural brain capacity of a 3 year old child, so if your problem is that we are smarter, then why dont you start eating all babies in the world)

and i sense a high bias from that article, because it obviously states nothing bad about eating meats. i would re evaluate articles before you take them as total and complete proof,

[Shadow00]

Look,meat can be fattening,but only if you eat JUST meat,and even so,in large quantities. On the other hand,if you're a vegetarian you HAVE to eat large quantities of food. Also,in my opinion,everyone has to excercise.(just in case).
Also,again, tofu is still TOXIC and can cause diabetes (in a larger scale than meat can,actually.)
Also,another factor,which is not the best counter-example,but it's the most important:
Money. Do you know how much more money you need to buy all the veggies that would replenish the vitamins etc of 1 steak? Its about double the cost. And that's a real pain for not-so-wealthy families :/
Finally,about the whole against-nature thing,I'll give you one example.
In the late 20th century,some companies had the idea of feeding their cows processed meat,in order to get larger quantities of meat out of them etc.
This resulted in what is largely known as the "mad-cow disease", and is the best example about what happens when someone goes against nature. Search it up.
Also,could you explain the "plant-killing" part a bit? I don't seem to get the main idea you're stating there…

[J3rdegree]

there are plenty of ways to get nutrients that are in meat that you dont need to eat huge quantities of. and i exercise regularly and have a high metabolism anyways. i dont intend on eating tofu because it is gross (why i was asking for other ways to get meat nutrients, i ended up doing research of my own and found tons) and i think you have been living under a rock or somthing, because steak can run around $16 a pound at a supermarket, and veggies are around $2.50 a pound. so money isnt a factor at all. and if you get a high protean veggie, cereal, or other alternitive instead of your regular veggie it is MUCH cheaper than buying meat.
Your whole against nature thing shows the opposite of what you are fighting for... and besides that, im asking how VEGETARIANISM is against nature, not in general what happens. because it USED to be a needed part of survival for humans to eat meat, but now it isnt at all.
the plant-killing part bit is. most previous posts are stating that plants can "feel pain" and in your post you said

Unfortunately, in order for one living organism to live, another has to die. It’s the natural circle of life and death.

so why cant a plant be the one to die instead of an animal?
because to what everyone else is saying, plants are also classified under the "living organisms that need to die" category

origionally this wasnt about the money, or the pollution, or anything like that
it is suppose to be about the morals of ending the life of a harmless,helpless animal that doesnt need to be killed in order for human survival.
so can we please get back on the main topic?

[Shadow00]

Ok. Why kill plants then? Aren't they living organisms too? Don't they suffer? Let's all feed on lab products ._.
Anyways,I already stated that I have no morals left (apart of the basic ones) whatsoever. If you want to survive in a world like today's,you can't have morals,except of the basic ones... It's one's death for another's survival. That's the end of it for me. After all,let's Allow anyone else speak their mind

[J3rdegree]

Anyways,I already stated that I have no morals left (apart of the basic ones) whatsoever. If you want to survive in a world like today's,you can't have morals,except of the basic ones... It's one's death for another's survival. That's the end of it for me. After all,let's Allow anyone else speak their mind

~this is what is wrong with society today~
NO ONE CARES BOUT ANYTHING BUT THEMSELVES!!!
ugh >:I