Edward Snowden: Good or bad guy?

[GarthVader449]

Ok I'm sorry but he is absolute scum.
Why not just tell them where we will be hardest hit and send them over with more plane hijackers?
Lets just have 9/11 all over again.
NO...He is an idiot!
People think the government is getting too nosy with our information but how do you think they are protecting us huh? If they weren't so "nosy" then how do you expect them to be able to keep us safe? Maybe I'm just "uneducated" on the matter, but until they come to my house and demand me to give them my guns, my drivers license and all my things for absolutely NO reason, I'm going to be fine with them being so "nosy".
Edward Snowden deserves to die...BUT he should be brought back to America to suffer the consequences first.

Um, you may be fine with it, but violating privacy is a disgusting thing to do. Fair enough they may claim that they're 'protecting' us but really, how do you know they're not doing other stuff with our data? I for one don't want all my stuff spied on because it's personal and sometimes downright embarrassing. Knowing that you're spied on loses the sense of security. DEFINITELY good guy. Like Shad said, he's serving the people.

Isn't the Goverment serving it's people?

[Shadowstar1922]

Reasons why it's bad for US citizens to be spied on.

1) We're protected by one of the many ammendments in the US Constitution, that gurantees our right to privacy. US Government violates it, and that is well, bad. xD That's our right.
2) If the US can spy on us, they can control us in many ways that probably didn't come up in your mind. the Government could do what ever they please, and if people rise up to oppose, they can politically embarass them with things they have discovered about that person and make them shut up. They can, essentially, black mail them. This allows the government to just walk over people and do whatever they want. It's an important thing we are guaranteed our constitutional rights, which they violate every single day.

For example, say I'm married to this man, Jack, and I'm 38 or whatever, and he's around the same age too. US Government cracks down on Freedom of Speech, and since I am a Socialist, I organize a small party and essentially protest over the internet, in the streets, commercials, etc. But, I've been cheating on Jack with this woman named Melissa. Now, I obviously don't want Jack to know. So, my Socialist Party is getting pretty powerful with protecting Americans the right to freedom of speech, and the Government decides to spy on me and they find out I've been having an affair. They can use that to publicly embarrass me, tell the citizens, "Is this the kind of leader you want? Someone who ruins what it means to be in a marriage with someone?" Or something like that. And, on tops of it, my marriage is ruin, Jack breaks up with me, and my political career is also ruined. Now, no one is around the protect freedom of speech.

And I know, this is big, but there's these little things everyone does on the internet, or even in their public lives that would be deemed as weird and if you stand up against the Government, while they have this power to know everything you do, they can publicly and politically embarrass and ruin your career and your social life.

You can't give the Government that kind of power, that is unacceptable. That's why we were given that right in the first place.

Every right we were given to by our founding fathers and future fathers before America got corrupt, were given to us for a reason and if the Government is given the chance, can abuse it so horribly.

For example, it's pretty poor. You cheated! Thats your fault, and if you do regret it you should have said to partner. So, there I have no sympathy, but if they got that information in the intrests of national security. They shouldn't ever publish it. Ever. That info was gained in saving lives it shouldn't be used agaist someone.

The Govt. also has a right to protect it's people, by whatever means possibly.

Augh, dude, that was just an example. It could be something like, say I was into very weird porn,, or hey, I like to draw fluffly pink rabbits, and as a man, that would be embarassing. People woudln't take you seriously. These things would ruin my, or any other politician's career, because people doubt them.

You don't understand. Because the Government did that, they scared everyone else from standing up and protecting the rights of the citizens, and boom, the people don't have freedom of speech anymore, or it's extremely limited. Would you honestly want no or little freedom of speech, rather than a man who cheated on his husband to serve the people and protect your rights? Say it was other rights too. Would you rather want little or no rights to your own property, rather than a cheating man who rose up and protected you and your rights?

Your personal life as a politician, does not matter, what matters is your ideology, what you want to do, and what your application to problems is.

The Government has no right, to spy on any citizen that they don't suspect is a terrorist. And, by spying on every citizen, the Government indirectly labels us as a threat to their sovereignty, when in real Democracies, the Government doesn't have their own sovereign entity. They serve, represent, and express what the People want, not what their own personal wants or needs, and most certainly not what lobbyist and corporations, anyone who has the most money wants.

The Government should never have their own opinion that WASN'T formulated by the majority of the people. Yet they do. Roughly around 89% of American citizens disapprove of Congress, yet Congress does nothing to change themselves to make their citizens happy. About 57% of Americans, if they were given the power, they would replace every single Congressman. Yet again, Congress won't change for the better.

In the future, America is going to have some sort of revolution if the Government keeps stomping over and neglecting the constitution, the people, and their rights the founding fathers granted them, and labeled that as unalienable.

Prosecuting Snowden, when he has done nothing wrong, is so stupid and illogical. The US Government is just pissy that their secrets are out, all the laws they broke, all the wrong doing they did, is out and exposed. America wouldn't have anything to worry about, if they didn't do that in the first place.

[GarthVader449]

Reasons why it's bad for US citizens to be spied on.

1) We're protected by one of the many ammendments in the US Constitution, that gurantees our right to privacy. US Government violates it, and that is well, bad. xD That's our right.
2) If the US can spy on us, they can control us in many ways that probably didn't come up in your mind. the Government could do what ever they please, and if people rise up to oppose, they can politically embarass them with things they have discovered about that person and make them shut up. They can, essentially, black mail them. This allows the government to just walk over people and do whatever they want. It's an important thing we are guaranteed our constitutional rights, which they violate every single day.

For example, say I'm married to this man, Jack, and I'm 38 or whatever, and he's around the same age too. US Government cracks down on Freedom of Speech, and since I am a Socialist, I organize a small party and essentially protest over the internet, in the streets, commercials, etc. But, I've been cheating on Jack with this woman named Melissa. Now, I obviously don't want Jack to know. So, my Socialist Party is getting pretty powerful with protecting Americans the right to freedom of speech, and the Government decides to spy on me and they find out I've been having an affair. They can use that to publicly embarrass me, tell the citizens, "Is this the kind of leader you want? Someone who ruins what it means to be in a marriage with someone?" Or something like that. And, on tops of it, my marriage is ruin, Jack breaks up with me, and my political career is also ruined. Now, no one is around the protect freedom of speech.

And I know, this is big, but there's these little things everyone does on the internet, or even in their public lives that would be deemed as weird and if you stand up against the Government, while they have this power to know everything you do, they can publicly and politically embarrass and ruin your career and your social life.

You can't give the Government that kind of power, that is unacceptable. That's why we were given that right in the first place.

Every right we were given to by our founding fathers and future fathers before America got corrupt, were given to us for a reason and if the Government is given the chance, can abuse it so horribly.

For example, it's pretty poor. You cheated! Thats your fault, and if you do regret it you should have said to partner. So, there I have no sympathy, but if they got that information in the intrests of national security. They shouldn't ever publish it. Ever. That info was gained in saving lives it shouldn't be used agaist someone.

The Govt. also has a right to protect it's people, by whatever means possibly.

Augh, dude, that was just an example. It could be something like, say I was into very weird porn,, or hey, I like to draw fluffly pink rabbits, and as a man, that would be embarassing. People woudln't take you seriously. These things would ruin my, or any other politician's career, because people doubt them.

You don't understand. Because the Government did that, they scared everyone else from standing up and protecting the rights of the citizens, and boom, the people don't have freedom of speech anymore, or it's extremely limited. Would you honestly want no or little freedom of speech, rather than a man who cheated on his husband to serve the people and protect your rights? Say it was other rights too. Would you rather want little or no rights to your own property, rather than a cheating man who rose up and protected you and your rights?

Your personal life as a politician, does not matter, what matters is your ideology, what you want to do, and what your application to problems is.

The Government has no right, to spy on any citizen that they don't suspect is a terrorist. And, by spying on every citizen, the Government indirectly labels us as a threat to their sovereignty, when in real Democracies, the Government doesn't have their own sovereign entity. They serve, represent, and express what the People want, not what their own personal wants or needs, and most certainly not what lobbyist and corporations, anyone who has the most money wants.

The Government should never have their own opinion that WASN'T formulated by the majority of the people. Yet they do. Roughly around 89% of American citizens disapprove of Congress, yet Congress does nothing to change themselves to make their citizens happy. About 57% of Americans, if they were given the power, they would replace every single Congressman. Yet again, Congress won't change for the better.

In the future, America is going to have some sort of revolution if the Government keeps stomping over and neglecting the constitution, the people, and their rights the founding fathers granted them, and labeled that as unalienable.

Prosecuting Snowden, when he has done nothing wrong, is so stupid and illogical. The US Government is just pissy that their secrets are out, all the laws they broke, all the wrong doing they did, is out and exposed. America wouldn't have anything to worry about, if they didn't do that in the first place.

When have the Goverment spied on someone, found out they were innocent, then used whatever "embarassing" information they found to publicly humiliate someone who opposes them?

The Goverment does have a right, to lsiten to personal phone calls etc... if it's in the intrest of serving and protect it's people, who elected them to protect them. That way the Govt. is able to pick up criminals and find high-risk/possible terriosts who wouldn't have been investigated or suspected of harming US citizens.

If the Goverment does something that it's people doesn't agree with but it's what needs to be done, then if the Goverment that was elected in by US citizens, who choose the best party or candidate to make these harsh and complicated decisions.
Roughly 60% of Brits don't want cuts to the benifit system. And around 80-90% of Brits don't want state pensions to change in any-way. Yet, the Goverment does this to help it's peoplecut the debt in the country.
A bit like a couple of children wanting a choclate bar, yet the parent says no. The parent does this for the best intrest of child.

And I highly much doubt there will be much protest or violence against this and even if there is, not even nearly close to a revolution against the Goverment invading peoples privacy to protect the all US citizens.

"The needs of the many, out-weight the needs of the few"

[paladin]

Ever since the "War On Terror" initially began, people have become so paranoid and hysteric over the thought of terrorists running into our country and blowing themselves up that the United States has begun to do things that simply convert more people into terrorists. Let's start from the top.

1. Citizen's Rights
First of all, the Bush administration to present (Henceforth known as "The Administration") have been wiping themselves with the Constitution, and the phrase "Civil Rights" have become an absolute joke due to certain acts by the US Government that are "in the greatest concern of our people". To begin with, as you read this, there are Recon Drones flying above the United States in the same airways as simple Cargo Flights and Air Transport. These Recon Drones are the EXACT SAME Drones that many people are trying to stop the usage of against "Illegal Combatants" such as the Terrorists. Furthermore, the Protecting Children from Internet Pornography Act (Henceforth known as "PCIP"), which sounds like a Governmental shield is actually a Federal sword. The PCIP Act allows the Administration to demand from Internet Service Providers (Henceforth known as "ISPs") your entire web browsing history without a. Probable Cause or b. warrant. Additionally, there are a vast number of additional crimes against the Rights of the US Citizens.

2. "Illegal Combatants"
Due to the Geneva Convention's limitations on the treatment of Prisoners of War (POWs), the Administration has developed a clever term for Terrorists and other combatants which have excluded themselves from the Convention's ruling due to their actions. The "Illegal Combatants" clause allows the Administration to do whatever it sees fit to the "Illegal Combatants" as they are not bound in their dealings by the Geneva Convention. Therefore torture methods such as Waterboarding are permitted by the Administration for use on Terrorists, thus allowing the multiplication of the already vast yet secretive numbers of the Terrorist organizations such as Al Queda and the infamous Taliban.

3. The Information Snowden ACTUALLY Released
The information released by Edward Snowden was blown entirely out of proportion. The information Snowden released was nothing but the NAME of the PRISM program and initiative, which we had former knowledge of, as well as the unconstitutional XKeyscore and Tempora internet surveillance programs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remainder shall be updated as I see fit.

[Shadowstar1922]

When have the Goverment spied on someone, found out they were innocent, then used whatever "embarassing" information they found to publicly humiliate someone who opposes them?
I didn't say anything about anyone being prosecuted. But, finding information about a certain someone and to use it to publicly humiliate them is very common in small politics, and Governments have used it to stay in power.


The Goverment does have a right, to lsiten to personal phone calls etc...
The Constitution says otherwise. The Government doesn't have the right to spy on the people when the Constitution gurantees the citizens the right to privacy. They don't have any right to spy on the people.
if it's in the intrest of serving and protect it's people, who elected them to protect them.
That phrase has been overused so many times, it sickens me. "Everything the government does is to protect it's people". That's complete bullshit. So many past oppressive leaders have used the same half-assed reason to gain absolute power. Nothing is really accomplished by spying on the people. I understand spying on someone when the Government has a ton of evidence to suspect them as a terrorist, but just spying on EVERYONE? No. We're independent citizens who deserve our right to privacy. We have civil rights. The "security and preserving the sovereignty of our great nation" is a joke pro-established liberals and conservatives use to get more power over the people.
That way the Govt. is able to pick up criminals and find high-risk/possible terriosts who wouldn't have been investigated or suspected of harming US citizens.

It's called getting a warrent. And actual solid, logical evidence.

If the Goverment does something that it's people doesn't agree with but it's what needs to be done, then if the Goverment that was elected in by US citizens, who choose the best party or candidate to make these harsh and complicated decisions.

Reality check. Politicians lie. When an elected person in office goes against the people, it is the duty of the people to overthrow that person or take them out of power. Elections only go so far. Saying, oh he/she was elected in, in a democracy, means they HAVE to finish their term, basically lets politicians lie o everyone to get the power, then back stab their voters. That's not a Democracy. That is Fascism. That's why we're able to overthrow people like that in democracies, just like what happened in Egypt.

Roughly 60% of Brits don't want cuts to the benifit system. And around 80-90% of Brits don't want state pensions to change in any-way. Yet, the Goverment does this to help it's peoplecut the debt in the country.

If the people feel they don't want that, then the British Government should try different ways and methods to reduce the debt. The fail of Democracy, or, representation in the United Kingdom is just like the one in America, and almost every single democracy in the world.
A bit like a couple of children wanting a choclate bar, yet the parent says no. The parent does this for the best intrest of child.

Families are not democracies. All households are run in a communist-like style of Government. Everyone does what they can to provide for the body politic(family) and the top people(parents) knows what's best for the family. Everyone does what they are good at to preserve the survival of the community. Everyone works together. Society, on the other hand, or, America, is a Democracy and cannot be compared to a family.

And I highly much doubt there will be much protest or violence against this and even if there is, not even nearly close to a revolution against the Goverment invading peoples privacy to protect the all US citizens.

I'm not talkign about specifically this, but time after time, the US Government is taking away certain rights and freedoms, and is actually persuading the people, they're doing it for national security. I think I would rather have all my rights than the country being "secure". The Government feeds off of the fear and hysteria of the people after 9-11 to slowly nit pick away at our rights to have more control. Last time I checked, this is a Democracy, not a Fascist state ruled by Congress.

"The needs of the many, out-weight the needs of the few"

[bob-jr]

What I think the problem with this whole discussion is, is that half of you are describing an ideal government, where the government should be dedicated to serving the people, while the other half are describing a government that is power hungry and seeks to control the people and have complete supremacy.

[Shadow00]

What I think the problem with this whole discussion is, is that half of you are describing an ideal government, where the government should be dedicated to serving the people, while the other half are describing a government that is power hungry and seeks to control the people and have complete supremacy.

Yes but I think it's obvious most of the gvts are of the latter cause.

And indeed, you may find it extreme, but allowing the government to spy on you... it's pretty much like selling yourself to them. They will have complete control over your life.
You guys say "if we have nothing to hide then we're ok".
What if I told you that then you don't deserve a democracy? Why make fun of North Korea, when you'll end up way worse than that? (If you aren't already)
Democracy is allowing the people to have power SUPERIOR to the government's.

But let's forget all about privacy and such foolish things as freedom that only a bunch of fools died in the past to protect, ok. Let's even forget about stuff like the Ammendments (for the Americans). I won't even get into cliches about how much this resembles things we all laughed at, like Big Brother. Forget all that.

I am asking you clearly. Do you want the government to spy on you for the rest of your lives? Would you want any possible human being to track your every move, because you MIGHT be a terrorist?

My personal belief is that they would just help the terrorists should any of them actually ever appear, so that they can go camping searching for oil in the middle east again.
(Yes it was a joke, probably)

[bob-jr]

What I think the problem with this whole discussion is, is that half of you are describing an ideal government, where the government should be dedicated to serving the people, while the other half are describing a government that is power hungry and seeks to control the people and have complete supremacy.

Yes but I think it's obvious most of the gvts are of the latter cause.

And indeed, you may find it extreme, but allowing the government to spy on you... it's pretty much like selling yourself to them. They will have complete control over your life.
You guys say "if we have nothing to hide then we're ok".
What if I told you that then you don't deserve a democracy? Why make fun of North Korea, when you'll end up way worse than that? (If you aren't already)
Democracy is allowing the people to have power SUPERIOR to the government's.

But let's forget all about privacy and such foolish things as freedom that only a bunch of fools died in the past to protect, ok. Let's even forget about stuff like the Ammendments (for the Americans). I won't even get into cliches about how much this resembles things we all laughed at, like Big Brother. Forget all that.

I am asking you clearly. Do you want the government to spy on you for the rest of your lives? Would you want any possible human being to track your every move, because you MIGHT be a terrorist?

My personal belief is that they would just help the terrorists should any of them actually ever appear, so that they can go camping searching for oil in the middle east again.
(Yes it was a joke, probably)

I agree that most governments are the latter, and that they shouldn't be allowed to spy on you no matter what their outwards intentions may be, as although they may use it for good, that information will most likely be stored somewhere and then perhaps later on someone with enough authority can access these files and there intentions may not be so pure.

And I was just trying to sound neutral so I wouldn't get dragged in. Thanks

[paladin]

I love how nobody responds to my essay <3

Pallydon is so good @ debating

[Shadowstar1922]

I love how nobody responds to my essay <3

Pallydon is so good @ debating

Not much people responded to my essay about Israel and Palestine. xD

It doesn't mean anything.