Gay Marriage

[Lightning Orb]

I don't know who the Kaulitz Brothers are, and I don't see how this example is a reason as to why you're not against it.

UGHHH!! Why do ya gotta irritate everyone?
The Kaulitz brothers are singers/guitarists in Tokio Hotel.. and in case you dont know who the hell they are.. it's a band,
2 twin brothers, twincest,
and that's not why I'm not agaisnt it,
I have a reason to not be agaisnt it,
but it's not for you to hear.

[Sphinx]

And yes, maybe by this principle alone we would also have to bite the bullet and accept incest, too. Although that is not something I'd want to do. I am sure however that you will not be able to find a non-theistic response to my question posed.

What is this world coming to?!!

By this "golden harm rule" are you telling it's okay for someone to marry an animal?

Just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you accept incest, but yet you support gays?
Is it because in your opinion, you find it morally wrong? Or because it goes against what you believe?

Not that I'm for incest either, believe me I'm all against it.

another fucking spammer -.-


MAKE 1 POST INSTEAD OF 4,IDIOT

[Lightning Orb]

another fucking spammer -.-


MAKE 1 POST INSTEAD OF 4,IDIOT

HA! I love this guy! xD
I was about to yell at him, thanks!

[Hitokiri]

time for my 2 cents I think.

I'm in agreement with zados and munt.
Although I wish to point out that the golden rule of harm does not apply in any and all situations.
That rule covers almost all the situations, so it is the general rule to follow, that whenever you take an action as a moral man that you do not (or minimize) the harm done to any and all other parties involved (especially human parties).

But in addition there is also that you have to protect people from harming themselves.

Both ideas of morality are well captured in a thing called the law.
Where laws both protect others and in some cases people from themselves.

on the incest remark munter made, I must respond that there would be a wrongdoing to another party. That is a biological fact, the offspring are weaker and have very high chances of faults in the genetic code, so that is why it has been forbidden by law in most societies.
(In this moral code it is to protect the quality of life of future life)


Now I don't know what incest and being gay has to do with eachother.
As there are two completely different things.
And I do believe that most of the people will agree that incest is something that isn't to be done really.
But that for being gay and gay marriage that you will have a different opinions and that there is both people pro and con.

Now as the old wisdom my history teacher once said:
Look at the law and you know what people did and what was morally accepted by most.
Seeing as being gay is accepted by many western societies and gay marriage is accepted in some, we can already say that these things are morally accepted by most in these countries. And as I said in the beginning of this post, laws are (con)tested to the rule that they do not harm others or people themselves.

So, gays do not harm you or harm themselves by being gay or by being able to marry.

[Vasilli]

anyone ever notice, that loads of people are against nazism and inequality, yet when it comes to homosexuality a fair few of these people treat gays inequally and as if they are inferior?

[Sphinx]

anyone ever notice, that loads of people are against nazism and inequality, yet when it comes to homosexuality a fair few of these people treat gays inequally and as if they are inferior?

uh,say what?

[Lightning Orb]

anyone ever notice, that loads of people are against nazism and inequality, yet when it comes to homosexuality a fair few of these people treat gays inequally and as if they are inferior?

uh,say what?

yeah i didn't get that either

[Emo_Kid]

anyone ever notice, that loads of people are against nazism and inequality, yet when it comes to homosexuality a fair few of these people treat gays inequally and as if they are inferior?

Yea, I am seeing that now.
I truley don't understand why a person should be agaisnt that, honestly, there really isnt anything wrong with being gay,
but maybe there is something wrong with incest.. but then again, I would agree with Orb on that matter,
I am a guy who isnt entirely against abortion,
and personally, i feel everyone should have the right to be treated equally.

[Lightning Orb]

but maybe there is something wrong with incest.. but then again, I would agree with Orb on that matter,

It's about time! I thought I was going to have to stand up for myself on that one.

[Munter]

Hito man, good remarks!

I'd like to point out that the "Harm Principle" and the "Golden Rule" are different things.
The Golden Rule is something along the lines of "treat others as you wish to be treated" - a position Jesus advocated - which comes with it's own problems (think of those who like pain, we don't want to say that they should cause others pains cause they like it).

Maybe what we need here is a mixture of both of these rules.
The Harm Principle first, then the Golden Rule on top of that.

Firstly, being gay causes no harm to others. Psychological damage springs from the idea that it causes offense to others. If we legislated against offense freedom of expression would be impossible.

Secondly, we would wish, in society, to be treated with respect when it comes to our decision with who we marry. By the logic of the Golden Rule we should then let others do the same.

Now, like I've said the Golden Rule is not without it's problems, but the harm principle can deal with these problems.




Also, I think Vassili's point is that no one in America (or very few at least) Would advocate the type of reigime that was in place under Nazi Germany, and believe that to surpress people for being different is plain wrong.
I think many of those against gay marriage would agree to this.
Vassilli makes the claim that they say they are against suppression, but in turn advocate it in the form of wanting to deny homosexuals the right to marry.

Am I right, Vassili?