Marriage Equality isn't about Marriage

[mmm]

The marriage equality debate is a hot topic recently, and I have no idea why anyone is opposing it. Actually, I do, and that's because of rampant misinformation.

It's not about forcing your church to accept same-sex marriage, as marriage is not the same as the sacrament of matrimony. Marriage is a secular contract between two people with many legal benefits (some of whom choose to incorporate a religious ceremony). Benefits which are denied to some simply because they share the same gender. Here's a non-exhaustive list of some benefits marriage grants: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/marriage-rights-benefits-30190.html

Pay attention to that last paragraph. If you believe in equal legal treatment for all human beings, then you can't argue "let the states decide" with a clean conscience.

Those who oppose this because they "believe in the traditional/biblical" may now have changed their minds. I hope to have a healthy discussion on this topic.

(excuse my words, syntax, grammar, and anything else I may have mucked up. It's late)

[Dr Frook]

seems nonsensical to argue against same-sex marriage. Humans are a stubborn lot, and changing fixed ideas that are centuries old is not easy.

[Shadowstar1922]

seems nonsensical to argue against same-sex marriage. Humans are a stubborn lot, and changing fixed ideas that are centuries old is not easy.

Right now in America, about 55% of Americans are in favor of granting same sex marriage rights, and around 36% deny it. In the past decade, it was the opposite. It's going to happen eventually.

And, countries who legalized it.

Argentina in 2010.
Belgium in 2006.
Brazil in 2012.
Canada in 2005.
Denmark in 2012.
Iceland in 2010.
Israel in 2012.
Mexico in 2012.
Netherlands in 2000-01
Norway in 2008-09.
Portugal in 2010.
South Africa in 2005-06.
Spain in 2005.
Sweden in 2009.
Ireland in 2011-12

Sorry if I missed any others.

But, a lot of countries are going for it, and even China in 2001, didn't approve of it, nor disapprove, nor promoted it (famous three nos) And China took it off of their list as a mental illness. Though China hasn't done anything further to it.

In America, by 2015 there's most likely going to be same sex marriage legalized nation-wide.

And Frook, Martin Luther King Jr did get equal rights for black people, yet it was a "fixed idea" that black men were not equal, yet he did it. Democracies are suppose to give it's citizen a home with no prosecution, and the discrimination against homosexuals is not acceptable in any form because they are normal human beings with nothing wrong with them and homosexuality is very natural. Not giving homosexuals equal rights goes against modern democratic fundamentals.

[Hitokiri]

It is natural in the sense that in nature it happens quite frequently that there are gay animals.
Since we are animals, though self-proclaimed more advanced animals, it is natural that there are gays in our species too.

That the majority of a species is straight to allow for offspring produced is also natural as otherwise the species becomes extinct.

[Shadowstar1922]

Homosexuality is natural? The whole idea of being attracted to a person is because they'd make a good mate, for mating, hence offspring produced.

I'm not discriminating against them, I just disagree with that point.

Btw, divorce is increasing rapidly in same sex marriages.

That's why about 70-90% of spiders are homosexual to control it's population? Because you know, the spiders chose to do so, right?

Also, sorry for getting graphic, but do you do know what the prostate is, right? An organ located in a male's rectum that when stimulated, boosts ejaculation of the male's orgasm, and in basic terms, the male G-Spot. It produces liquids that combine with the sperm to make semen. And, only males have prostates?

Because, that formed over the thousands and thousands of years of evolution to just let people say it's a choice. .-.

Now, in the Animal Kingdom, homosexuality is not rare, it's not uncommon, it's common. COMMON! Most animals have homosexuality activities, whether it be partnership for life(discovered as common with penguins) or sexual activities or simple cuddling. To name a few, homosexual activites have been discovered in zebras, apes, monkeys, giraffes, rhinos, dogs, birds, cats, leopards, tigers, lions, etc.

Since most homosexual activity in the wild kingdom are done by studied animals to be labeled as bisexual if you will label them, there is a theory called the Theory of Universal Bisexuality which states everyone is bisexual but some are more straight than gay(most common) around the middle, or more gay than straight.

This is supported by:
1)Most animals studied from each species on the matter of homosexuality have been found to be bisexual. Very rare animals are homosexual and in the most common of being homosexual are with domesticated sheep, statistics show that with domesticated sheep, 10-20% of male sheep refused to mate with female sheep.
2)In human civilizations, in societies where the people niether supported nor suppresed homosexuality, majority of the people were bisexual in the civilizations of the Roman Empire, which has documented gay marriages, Ancient Greeks, Chinese civilizations, Midevil Japan, West and East African Kingdoms, and Native Americans. It was very common for men to be bisexual since men were expected to lead independent lives. Famous bisexual men of history are Socrateses, Aristotle, Alexander the Great, Julius Ceasar, Hardian(had a life long gay lover, Antinous) Leonardo Da Vinci(gay) and Edward the II of England.
Some Facts:
Most Kings and Queens up until the 17th Century were bisexual, having lovers of both sex and if they were married, their wife or husband who be ok with it. Cathrine the Great of Russia was bisexual, and as I said previously, Edward the II of England was bisexual.
Almost all Spartan soldiers were Bisexual. Upon entering the military, the boys could choose an older lover to train with them and to love, to strengthen their ability to fight, since you wouldn't let your lover die if you could've done something. Some Spartan men kept in contact with their lovers after returning home to find a wife and have a family. Romans also did this, but not as far as the Spartans did, and various other Greek City-States did this as well in their military.


Love is love, no matter what. Gender means nothing. The only difference between a male and a female is their sexual organ and the chest, the rest is the same, and to select loving someone because they have the right "tools" you could say is absurd. Those two differences mean nothing.

Now, I'm not encouraging people to become bisexual, be who you are, explore if you want, whatever. I really don't care. But like I said before, love is love no matter what and to me gender does not matter. If you love someone and you want to spend the rest of your life with them, then you have that right to do so and no one can say anything because it is your life, not theirs.

The only reason why we look at homosexuality as taboo is because Christianity labels it as such. Jesus, the beloved Jewish Prophet of Christanity didn't even utter a word on the matters of homosexuality and bisexuality and since he lived in the Roman Empire, there's a chance he maybe approved homosexuality since it was common within the Empire.


So, Alice. I think homosexuality is quite, "natural".

[Shadowstar1922]

1. Homosexuality in famous men is not really a point.
2.Love is a completely different thing.
3.Face it. We're animals. And we want to pass our genes on, which won't happen if you have gay intercourse.

I don't really care what people say about feelings and emotions and religion, but I listen to Science and according to Science, it is not natural simply because, like Hito said, no offspring produced would lead to an extinction of the species.

Let me ask you this, if homosexuality is not natural, then how did it happen? .-.

[mmm]

This whole conversation is the one I wanted to avoid/make moot.

It doesn't matter what your views on homosexuality are, preventing couples from marrying is denying them rights others are entitled to, aside from the ability to marry itself.

[Shadowstar1922]

Hormonal imbalances that aren't supposed to be there.


Or perhaps Gandalf cast a spell.

And what exactly would cause these, "hormonal imbalances"? And, if they aren't suppose to be there, then why did they get there?

And, I love in one of your earlier posts when you said, "I don't really care what people say about feelings and emotions and religion, but I listen to Science and according to Science, it is not natural simply because, like Hito said, no offspring produced would lead to an extinction of the species."

I love how when what you just said, is the opposite. Feelings and emotions and religion say homosexuality is bad and taboo, and Science actually proves it's natural. xD

[Shadowstar1922]

Okay. So according to you. Courting, mating isn't about offspring. Rubbish.
I don't recall every saying that, nor impying that I think mating is not about the reproduction of the species.

Why are there hormonal imbalances? Why are there diseases? Why are there mental disorders? I'm not a scientist, I barely understand the crap from school. I don't know, there just are.
You say you barely understand it, yet you use it as a justification in your reasoning. Smart. Don't blindly follow something without knowing exactly what it is.

And I 'love' how you're so unwilling to accept or even consider another person's view, that is not entirely preposterous or evil, and makes just a tiny little hint of sense. This is what I think. This is what I shall think. There are always going to be different views about this, about everything.
I'm not making you out to be an evil person and I am considering your point of view. If I didn't consider it, I couldn't respond.
I think it's high time you realised that.

And like I said, I don't care about feelings and crap, I look at it from a detached, unbiased and simplistic, yet scientific way. It's the clearest.
Homosexuality has been detailed documented as natural in 500 species, and has been discovered in 1,500 species, which is almost all of the species on Earth, and I gurantee a majority of them do not feel complex feelings and emotions like humans do. Spiders certainly don't.

I consider your point of view, I may even agree with some parts of it, yet overall the judgement backed by my understanding outweighs the judgement of your proposed ideas.

[Shadowstar1922]

You're really annoying me now.
If you can't handle having a discussion/argument, then you shouldn't have posted anything in the first place, or even looked in the Serious Discussion topic, since there's a lot of opinions being shared and a lot of discussions and arguments. And, I am respecting and considering your opinion. I have continueoulsy responded to what you have said and "countered" it, if you may say, with my opinion. Again, like I've said before, If i was not taking in your opinion then how could I be making any responses at all that make sense?
-I said Homosexuality was not natural because of the ultimate goal of reproduction, which cannot happen in homosexuality. This was the whole point of my argument in the first place.
Not everything animals do is for the cause of reproduction. If something happens in nature, it is natural.
-I say I can barely understand it. You don't know me. I happen to be blessed with something called low self esteem, that's why I said that. Have you seen my grades? Have you ever had a conversation with me regarding Science? No. You haven't.
The matter on whether homosexuality is natural or not, doesn't concern your grades, your personal life, etc. I'm not trying to elevate this to a personal matter or point. Saying that is completely irrelevant to the matter. Also, I'm pretty sure this argument we're having is about science, so I guess we have had a conversation regarding science.
-I don't think you're considering. Just simply labelling it as crap crap crap. Or you wouldn't argue so much.

-Again. I, Me, The Person Typing This, think, believe it or not, still think SCIENTIFICALLY that this is not normal. Doesn't matter if its been documented, because documented does not mean its natural.
Science has to do with nature. If something happens in nature, it is natural. Therefore, homosexuality is natural, since homosexual activities have been discovered, studies, and documented. Again, not everything a species does is for the sake of producing offspring. If something happens in nature, guess what! It's natural!