The God Problem.

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Munter
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The God Problem.

Postby Munter » 22 Mar 2011, 23:52

NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.

Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.

God is all good
God is all powerful (omnipotent)
God is all knowing

If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?

Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.

So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.

So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.

BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.

BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good.

This is a very very basic version of an age-old debate and a better and more detailed version can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8467755.stm
(Incidentally, the guy who wrote the article is a lecturer of mine)
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby mmm » 23 Mar 2011, 00:21

Are you sure you aren't just going to use our answers in a term paper? jk, lemme reread that.
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby Hitokiri » 23 Mar 2011, 13:23

this is obviously under the assumption god exists.

In that case any higher power must have created us with free will.
That is if we are created by a higher power.

Anyone ever heard of the novel of flatland where the author has the mathematical theory of multiple dimensions?
Basically a dot can't see up, just sideways, so it can for example see the line of a circle.
That's because a dot exists in 2 dimensional space.

We humans exist in 3 dimensional space.
When we were to push on the dot in 2 dimensional space, it would not see it, nor know about it, it would indeed be perceived as an act of god for the element in 2 dimensional space.

Maybe we're just toys for creatures in a 4 dimensional space.
Like a little ant colony and a kid playing with us.
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby woofwoof » 23 Mar 2011, 15:04

'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.'
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his
class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
'Yes sir,' the student says.
'So you believe in God?'
'Absolutely.'
'Is God good?'
'Sure! God's good.'
'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
'Yes'
'Are you good or evil?'
'The Bible says I'm evil.'
The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible!
He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you.
Let's say there's a sick person over here and you
can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him?
Would you try?'
'Yes sir, I would.'
'So you're good...!'
'I wouldn't say that.'
'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and
maimed person if you could. Most of us would
if we could. But God doesn't.'
The student does not answer, so the professor
continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was
a Christian who died of cancer, even though he
prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good?
Can you answer that one?'
The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?'
the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass
on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start
again, young fella. Is God good?'
'Er..yes,' the student says.
'Is Satan good?'
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'
'Then where does Satan come from?'
The student falters. 'From God'
'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son.
Is there evil in this world?'
'Yes, sir..'
'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'
'Yes'
'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created
everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according
to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'
Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality?
Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'
The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'
'So who created them?'
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his
question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly
the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class
is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you
believe in Jesus Christ, son?'
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'
The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you
use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'
'No sir. I've never seen Him.'
'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
'No, sir, I have not..'
'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for
that matter?'
'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
'Yet you still believe in him?'
'Yes'
'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'
'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'
'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has
with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of
His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '
' Yes.
'And is there such a thing as cold?'
'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
'No sir, there isn't.'
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room
suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can
have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat,
white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'.
We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't
go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would
be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is
susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes
a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total
absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the
absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal
units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the
absence of it.'
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer.
'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'
'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation.. 'What is night if it isn't
darkness?'
'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light,
but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness,
isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness
isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a
good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'
'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you
explain how?'
'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains.. 'You argue
that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are
viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.
Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism,
but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as
the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a
substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.'
'Now tell me, professor.. Do you teach your students that they evolved from
a monkey?'
'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of
course I do.'
'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where
the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot
even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching
your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has
subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student,
let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room.
'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class
breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's
brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one
appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect,
sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to
take them on faith.'
'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student
continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the professor
responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the
world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'
To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto
itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word
that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil
is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his
heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes
when there is no light.'
The professor sat down.

If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your face when you finished, mail to your friends and family with the title 'God vs. Science'
PS: the student was Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein wrote a book titled God vs. Science in 1921...


Got this in an email. Very good story.
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby Munter » 23 Mar 2011, 21:07

The thing is, saying that God doesn't exist requires faith just as much as saying God does exist.

Well, maybe less so, if you believe in am omnipotent, all knowing, good God. As we have just seen that may require a little more faith, and something less rational.

That's a good wee section woof, but I suppose what it highlights is that a complete faith in science is just as inexplicable as a complete faith in religion. Well, at the very least science at a rigorous level can require some faith.

What I'm getting at is the difficulty of having a rational belief in a God which is all good, all knowing, and all powerful.

Thing is, we will never be able to tell whether God exists or not through our experience, it's as meaningless a statement either way as saying 'all trees have souls' whether they do or not, we'll never be able to tell, so to assert it as true or false is simply a meaningless statement.
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby woofwoof » 23 Mar 2011, 21:25

Munter wrote:The thing is, saying that God doesn't exist requires faith just as much as saying God does exist.

Well, maybe less so, if you believe in am omnipotent, all knowing, good God. As we have just seen that may require a little more faith, and something less rational.

That's a good wee section woof, but I suppose what it highlights is that a complete faith in science is just as inexplicable as a complete faith in religion. Well, at the very least science at a rigorous level can require some faith.

What I'm getting at is the difficulty of having a rational belief in a God which is all good, all knowing, and all powerful.

Thing is, we will never be able to tell whether God exists or not through our experience, it's as meaningless a statement either way as saying 'all trees have souls' whether they do or not, we'll never be able to tell, so to assert it as true or false is simply a meaningless statement.


But people can believe what they want to believe, and, so far, throughout history, many have decided to believe that there is a God. Many have tried to tell them no. Why can't everyone just leave everyone alone? Let us believe what we want to believe! Even if there isn't a God, at least it's something we can believe in to help get us through each day. Everyone has something they believe in, even if they say they 'don't believe in anything'. That's believing that there is nothing to believe in, meaning you believe. Ok, I know, I just confused most of you. But you get what I'm saying!
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby mmm » 23 Mar 2011, 21:59

Erm, what, as basically as possible, are we discussing here? Are we discussing the inherent problems with believing in something that cannot be proved? Are we trying to prove/disprove the existence of a God?
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby Munter » 23 Mar 2011, 23:27

The point in this topic was to show the potential irrationality of the belief in a typical Christian God. (I.E - A God that is all good, all knowing and all powerful) Although we cannot prove the existence of things that we cannot measure, see etc, we can show that it is logically impossible for a God of this type to exist. At least by human standards of logic. But then, if God works on a different logic, than can we call him 'good' by our standards?

This isn't a debate as to whether God exists at all or not, just that a God of this definition is a difficult belief to rationally hold.

And woof, I suppose if you believe that someone is wrong in holding a belief you may see it as your duty to correct their error, and they yours, so we have measured rigorous debate. If someone is found out to be wrong, then the person who proved them wrong has done them a great service, by ridding them of a false belief.
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby woofwoof » 24 Mar 2011, 04:12

Munter wrote:The point in this topic was to show the potential irrationality of the belief in a typical Christian God. (I.E - A God that is all good, all knowing and all powerful) Although we cannot prove the existence of things that we cannot measure, see etc, we can show that it is logically impossible for a God of this type to exist. At least by human standards of logic. But then, if God works on a different logic, than can we call him 'good' by our standards?

This isn't a debate as to whether God exists at all or not, just that a God of this definition is a difficult belief to rationally hold.

And woof, I suppose if you believe that someone is wrong in holding a belief you may see it as your duty to correct their error, and they yours, so we have measured rigorous debate. If someone is found out to be wrong, then the person who proved them wrong has done them a great service, by ridding them of a false belief.



But have they done them a great service? What if, because that belief is taken away, a person lives forever in fear, anger, depression, anxiety, etc. etc.? Then again, that's just a what if. But still, you get my meaning. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but I'd like it if you wouldn't tell me that I'm wrong.
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Re: The God Problem.

Postby Hitokiri » 24 Mar 2011, 13:12

if we go back to the very root of all things, it is not that mankind has believed in god all the time.
And others have tried to take that belief away.

The very essence and core of all religions that are still or have once been in this world is to explain the unexplainable.

We all know that the root of mankind lies in Africa. Many of the ancient tribes there believed and some still believe in nature and spirits.
Many religions that followed out of that and that we know of try to explain our existence, where we come from, why there is a sunrise, sunset.

Obviously the bible would be a good example for that, genesis gives you the answer to those questions.

Now through science, as we have evolved through the ages we know differently.
We know that there is a sunrise because the earth spins on itself in orbit around the sun, we know that we have evolved from animals into animals with higher evolved brains capable of higher thinking.

That is the core of every religion, trying to explain what was/is unexplainable at the time.
The other thing all religions have in common is the afterlife. But that's another discussion.
Now also no one actually knows if it truly exists, if you really have to be good.
(it could just be that powerful men once used this to subdue the general population, best not to forget that the entire bible is full of laws and do's and don'ts written down by men)


As for there being a higher power/spirit/.....
Perhaps there is and it is as you say munter, it is logically refutable.
Especially when you put the human logic on a micro-scale, namely the individual and all the good/bad things that happen on that individual being.

However we can turn the logic around a bit, make it more macro and not focus on the individual but on the entire planet, nature etc.

And that would give you other results perhaps.
Would god do good things even if bad things would happen to the individual?
Yes.
You die somehow, once, y ou'll die.
That's a tragedy for you and the people around you.
however it isn't for nature and the earth.
If you would be on earth forever, we would not have enough room, food etc, etc.
So in this logic, dying is good.
(although we will all agree that death by old age is much preferred)
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