Gotta love equality.

[The Divine Potato]

this

And so goes the argument that men are still wrong and will be wrong for going entirely against human nature. However, murderers still get the same thing, so it isn't exclusive to rapists.

So what if it's human nature? It's still wrong to have sex with someone without consent and the result of it can lead to horrible things for both parties. And yes, it isn't exclusive to rapists, I understand that. Both murderers and rapists can just find better outlets to get out their anger/sexual frustrations/whatever. There are so many better outlets that don't effect other human beings as much as the ones that they choose. Some people find that playing violent video games for an hour a day and getting all your anger out through that way is a good way to relieve stress.

I didn't mean rape was human nature, I was trying to say treating women as 'objects' is human nature, though both my own statement and the very statement I was going against seems invalid. Since men only call women 'woman' in: jokes, societies where it's viewed as socially right but it really should not be and America is usually bombing them, and in abusive relationships. All of which have a quick and easy solution, except possibly the second one. The solutions are

Jokes: laugh and then take it as it is, a joke and then give a sexist joke to men that is actually funny, to both sides.

Countries: that's a topic for a whole different thread.

Abusive relationships(for either gender): a quick call of either the emergency services, or if your one of those kinds of people, the Jeremy Kyle show(reason for that is they have a trained psychologist that helps the families after the show.)

The solutions are easy, doing them is just society's big huge stupid problem.

Infact. Now that I think about it, the argument really was never fabricated by women and men, women never began under the thumb of their male counterparts, probably a little of the opposite the male having to please his group of females in the animal kingdom. Somewhere along the line, it was society that thought this whole stupid idea of women being below men. And now society pretty much has corrected that way and we've went off balance towards the other side.

i agree with part of what you've said, but not all of it.

treating women as objects isn't human nature otherwise women ourselves would treat ourselves as objects (as, surprisingly, we actually are human! imagine!)

jokes aren't always okay because they easily go too far, are often really offensive and you can't get around them (eg a comeback, a retaliating joke) without uproar

abusive relationships aren't solved with a quick call to 999 or a trip to the Jeremy kyle show
yes they may see a psychologist but beforehand they will certainly have received psychological damage, and maybe too scared to call someone if they are heavily threatened, and also they probably wouldn't want it publicised to everyone

woman never began under the thumb of women, in fact we were once equal (again, imagine that!) and even today, the males please the women in our society in similar ways as the women please the men
in medieval times this unbalance originated and women were oppressed.

however, society has NOT corrected that way and we are still not equal.
in some ways, yes, women are more privileged than men.
but in most ways, no

when is a man told to go cook the food because they are male?
when is a man asked what they were wearing when they were raped?
when is a man told that he should not be working he should stay at home and raise his children?
when is a man told to clean, because he is male?
when is a man paid less because he is male?

male protagonists are default
males do not have their masculinity called into question when he does not have kids
males do not have careless driving attributed to their gender
males are not expected to change their name upon heterosexual marriage

There are very good points in there, but I will do the cowards thing and highlight the parts that are a little off.

Male protagonists aren't default, they are stereotypical but an awful lot of that was driven by the early stories of 'prince charming' but now stories are rather balanced, especially with games where gender can be picked.

Males don't have their masculinity called into question, however they do have their success as a person and/or their relationship security called into question.

Males do actually have a caring attribute equated to their gender, women have maternal instincts but the products that the mother puts in the baby's mouth, even indirectly if it's because of breastfeeding, is paid for by the man, and of course the child benefits at that, women don't work on maternal leave, but the man still goes to a job and has limited contact with the child so it's no wonder the bond with the kid is looser.

Women actually don't have to take the second name of the person they marry, it is purely the choice of the woman to take that name, and no family is going to worry about their son's name not being apart of his wive's. Only case scenario is some sort of mafia family that has a strict tradition or something.

A man isn't told to clean, he's told to work, you wonder why there were less women than men in old times? It's because there were a whole lot more widows, work regulations and that. But to be fair the jobs that women worked were dubious too.

A man isn't paid less, neither is a woman, bottom line, age is the difference, so is work performance and variables exclusive to the workplace, gender is not one of them.

Very true that a man isn't told that he shouldn't be working but he should be raising a child, but has a woman ever been told she shouldn't be working but be going to war?

I've not heard those kind of comments being said to women, though If they do go about then I don't really know how to respond except by saying that people don't give a shit about what the man was wearing, whoever raped him was not looking at his clothes when he or she removed them, because men don't wear skirts that are waaay above the knee. They don't even ordinarily wear skirts.

A man isn't told to cook food, but throughout history a man has been needed to 'bring food to the table' as they say, that argument is invalid at the fact that both work, one brings the food to the kitchen, and the other brings it to the table, the woman brings it to the table.

Any men who don't pay for their family, don't deserve what they created, so my example only applies to men who have those values of supporting their values, not supporting their family is not a 'guy thing' before anyone says it is. Overall, the arguments are valid, though some of the other points are a bit less so.

[Lamb]

when is a man told to go cook the food because they are male?
when is a man asked what they were wearing when they were raped?
when is a man told that he should not be working he should stay at home and raise his children?
when is a man told to clean, because he is male?
when is a man paid less because he is male?

male protagonists are default
males do not have their masculinity called into question when he does not have kids
males do not have careless driving attributed to their gender
males are not expected to change their name upon heterosexual marriage

I honestly don't like the point that's trying to make, not because it's wrong, just because it's pointing out that it's a problem to how as a male, I am treated. I understand that it's not the same, for males and females, there's a reason for that. In nature the males tend to do the grind work for the food of the pride , while the female tend to the young, however, in some species, males and females hunt together and take their young along the way. Now, you are humans, you understand other creatures better than you understand yourselves.(As a person we all have different opinions on what should be done, because we don't drive ourselves entirely by instinct) I can go on to argue how religion and tradition play a huge part in society's views on people, but I won't.(That's mainly for you who wonder why women are treated like objects/property) "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." As a species humanity is unable to advance because they continue to make the same mistakes. The ignoramus people of society, which for the most part is a large portion of it, will continue to make the same mistakes as their ancestors because that's what they've been shown to do, and they believe it's acceptable. To change that one would have to "rewire" a person's mind to think in a certain way, which not everyone would be happy with, since there is no agreement that they would be happy with, as no one likes to give up something, compromise. In the face of society women are treated with less harshly than men are when it comes to punishment. A woman facing rape charges would most likely be given a lighter sentence than a man because of the bias that exists among the jury in the trial.

jokes aren't always okay because they easily go too far, are often really offensive and you can't get around them (eg a comeback, a retaliating joke) without uproar

Well, honestly I don't think I should have to address this, but I wouldn't expect someone to joke with someone they are not to fond of. There's a time and place for jokes, and I have female friends who will joke about stupid stuff with me and target me for being a male, but I'll just joke back with a sexist joke as well. We know that we are joking, and therefore we will not take offense to it.

The women's movement has hardly done shit so far. It'll be time for a men's revolution when men stop treating women as objects and when people stop sympathizing with the rapist for "ruining their futures with their actions".

I like how you avoided the fact that people care less for the rapist, as they are usually sent of wiht other people who act like them in prison, when they sympathize with the rape victim more than likely. "The women's movement" isn't finished, it's just a series of campaigns that have occured that are compiled to build that up. You may be referring to the Women's suffrage movement where women were given the right to vote among other rights previously denied to them.

Now for me to give my opinion about the topic at hand.
I've seen things like this legitimately happen, where women are not seen as the oppressive individual in a relationship. But then again, what are we suppose to do? As guys we will constantly say "We cannot hurt her because she's a girl." Honestly, arguments like this have pushed me to the point of where if a female were to tell me to treat her as an equal, I would. I would treat her like I treat myself, however, if it gets to a point where she's just plain annoying, I will treat her like a male. If you want equality, expect me to treat you like an equal. You hug me, I hug you. You punch me, I'll punch you. I will not discriminate toward you for whatever possible reason may exist, however, I will treat you better than I would treat myself, regardless of who you are, or who you think you are, or if you deserve it, or not.

[Tycoon]

And so goes the argument that men are still wrong and will be wrong for going entirely against human nature. However, murderers still get the same thing, so it isn't exclusive to rapists.

So what if it's human nature? It's still wrong to have sex with someone without consent and the result of it can lead to horrible things for both parties. And yes, it isn't exclusive to rapists, I understand that. Both murderers and rapists can just find better outlets to get out their anger/sexual frustrations/whatever. There are so many better outlets that don't effect other human beings as much as the ones that they choose. Some people find that playing violent video games for an hour a day and getting all your anger out through that way is a good way to relieve stress.

I didn't mean rape was human nature, I was trying to say treating women as 'objects' is human nature, though both my own statement and the very statement I was going against seems invalid. Since men only call women 'woman' in: jokes, societies where it's viewed as socially right but it really should not be and America is usually bombing them, and in abusive relationships. All of which have a quick and easy solution, except possibly the second one. The solutions are

Jokes: laugh and then take it as it is, a joke and then give a sexist joke to men that is actually funny, to both sides.

Countries: that's a topic for a whole different thread.

Abusive relationships(for either gender): a quick call of either the emergency services, or if your one of those kinds of people, the Jeremy Kyle show(reason for that is they have a trained psychologist that helps the families after the show.)

The solutions are easy, doing them is just society's big huge stupid problem.

Infact. Now that I think about it, the argument really was never fabricated by women and men, women never began under the thumb of their male counterparts, probably a little of the opposite the male having to please his group of females in the animal kingdom. Somewhere along the line, it was society that thought this whole stupid idea of women being below men. And now society pretty much has corrected that way and we've went off balance towards the other side.

i agree with part of what you've said, but not all of it.

treating women as objects isn't human nature otherwise women ourselves would treat ourselves as objects (as, surprisingly, we actually are human! imagine!)

jokes aren't always okay because they easily go too far, are often really offensive and you can't get around them (eg a comeback, a retaliating joke) without uproar

abusive relationships aren't solved with a quick call to 999 or a trip to the Jeremy kyle show
yes they may see a psychologist but beforehand they will certainly have received psychological damage, and maybe too scared to call someone if they are heavily threatened, and also they probably wouldn't want it publicised to everyone

woman never began under the thumb of women, in fact we were once equal (again, imagine that!) and even today, the males please the women in our society in similar ways as the women please the men
in medieval times this unbalance originated and women were oppressed.

however, society has NOT corrected that way and we are still not equal.
in some ways, yes, women are more privileged than men.
but in most ways, no

when is a man told to go cook the food because they are male?
when is a man asked what they were wearing when they were raped?
when is a man told that he should not be working he should stay at home and raise his children?
when is a man told to clean, because he is male?
when is a man paid less because he is male?

male protagonists are default
males do not have their masculinity called into question when he does not have kids
males do not have careless driving attributed to their gender
males are not expected to change their name upon heterosexual marriage

There are very good points in there, but I will do the cowards thing and highlight the parts that are a little off.

Male protagonists aren't default, they are stereotypical but an awful lot of that was driven by the early stories of 'prince charming' but now stories are rather balanced, especially with games where gender can be picked.

Males don't have their masculinity called into question, however they do have their success as a person and/or their relationship security called into question.

Males do actually have a caring attribute equated to their gender, women have maternal instincts but the products that the mother puts in the baby's mouth, even indirectly if it's because of breastfeeding, is paid for by the man, and of course the child benefits at that, women don't work on maternal leave, but the man still goes to a job and has limited contact with the child so it's no wonder the bond with the kid is looser.

Women actually don't have to take the second name of the person they marry, it is purely the choice of the woman to take that name, and no family is going to worry about their son's name not being apart of his wive's. Only case scenario is some sort of mafia family that has a strict tradition or something.

A man isn't told to clean, he's told to work, you wonder why there were less women than men in old times? It's because there were a whole lot more widows, work regulations and that. But to be fair the jobs that women worked were dubious too.

A man isn't paid less, neither is a woman, bottom line, age is the difference, so is work performance and variables exclusive to the workplace, gender is not one of them.

Very true that a man isn't told that he shouldn't be working but he should be raising a child, but has a woman ever been told she shouldn't be working but be going to war?

I've not heard those kind of comments being said to women, though If they do go about then I don't really know how to respond except by saying that people don't give a shit about what the man was wearing, whoever raped him was not looking at his clothes when he or she removed them, because men don't wear skirts that are waaay above the knee. They don't even ordinarily wear skirts.

A man isn't told to cook food, but throughout history a man has been needed to 'bring food to the table' as they say, that argument is invalid at the fact that both work, one brings the food to the kitchen, and the other brings it to the table, the woman brings it to the table.

Any men who don't pay for their family, don't deserve what they created, so my example only applies to men who have those values of supporting their values, not supporting their family is not a 'guy thing' before anyone says it is. Overall, the arguments are valid, though some of the other points are a bit less so.

firstly I'm going to mention this. rapists have not been convicted on the basis that the woman was dressed in a tempting way.
essentially what you have just said is that if women do wear what they would like - short skirts included - that it is their fault if a man is too tempted and forces himself upon her.

also, women haven't been told they shouldn't have been working but should be going to war - because they were considered too inferior for that job. in fact, the men were paid for being a soldier too.

i also used the phrase "expected to" as regards to the marriage and names point
i know they don't have to, in fact many don't, but my point was that it generally becomes "Mr and Mrs Smith" instead of "Mrs and Mr Jones" or whatever
in fact, Mrs means Mister's as in belonging to the Mr

when i google "men paid more than women" then the most recent result is:
13th June 2014: Millennial Women Are Still Getting Paid Less Than Men ... college-educated millennial men made $20,000 more per year than women with the ... (article says: same education level) so it is true that gender is a factor in pay

and my point about women being told to cook is also based upon the common phrases "cool story babe now make me a sandwich" "go back to the kitchen" "you belong in the kitchen" etc

the last point you made, about men not deserving their created was based on the
scenario of unprotected sex. hypothetically the man can walk away, disappear and often the people are okay with that, he didn't mean for her to become pregnant, she should have used contraception, and he didn't want the baby after all
but the woman can't disappear, she has to make the decision - keep, abort, or adopt? and no matter which decision she makes, it affects the rest of her life.

now I'm tired and i'll fix any errors here later, so please excuse if anything makes no sense

also, another point - men can be angry, they were probably provoked
women are angry it automatically means they're on their period regardless of whether they were provoked

(i'll also respond to lamb tomorrow)

[Shadow00]

About the last post, 4 points.
First, essentially if a woman dresses like a slut i honestly would never expect her to be treated as an equal, by anyone.
Raping her is ofcourse wrong, but i also believe that she is more or less going for it.
You dont see me walking with "tempting clothing" in downtown seattle or whatever. Mainly cause im a guy, but also because i know what happens to people who do.
Its not a matter of sex, its a matter of criminality.
So yes, essentialy if a woman dresses with 5% clothing overall, then i think her getting raped is much more likely.

Second of all, i am 95% certain women didnt go to war so they could raise their children. Since ancient sparta. Which was pretty much as feminist as you could be in ancient greece.
So if you think raising chilfren is inferior to serving your country, im sorry for your upraising.
Third point. I believe that is the womens fault, getting employed and paid less.
See there was this trend not too long ago going on even now where women would not even take a joke in a job seriously and call for sexual harassment leading to person in charge getting fined or fired.
That obviously led to less women getting employed, and then women complaining about men getting better jobs and better pays.
Sorry, but you pay for what you break where i come from.
Lastly, if a woman has sex with any person, she SHOULD be aware that theres a chance of getting pregnant.
If youre against abortion, have sex after marriage i dont care.
One night stands are EXACTLY that. If you dont want children use contraception. If you dont want to do that and the guy doesnt either, dont have sex, im sure there are other things you can do.

Im just bored that women can say mostly whatever they want nowadays and its usually politically incorrect to disagree in gender related subjects.
I never was politically correct to begin with, and having that as an arguement to every solid point i make gets on my nerves.

Equality as lamb said is equality. If a woman punches me with all her strength i have the right to do the same and much more, as it is self defense. Its not being abusive. If a woman verbally abuses me i have the right to verbally abuse her too. Being nice is another deal
If you disagree and believe women should get equal rights in every field except those they are better off at, then excuse me but that is definitely not equality, thats a joke.
And since thats what feminism stands for, i believe its a joke, thats why i made this thread for in the first place

[The Divine Potato]

I don't like this idea that when a woman is married that now girls think that Mrs means mister's, one Thats hypersensitivity and reading into it into a whole level further, if that's what it actually meant you'd be writing down mr's, you aren't property when you're married, this seems to be the new thing about, ruining the sanctity of marriage, what little it has left as it seems mostly used for symbolic purposes or in intrest of money and other things. If you became a man's property once you were married then you would have a WHOLE lot less rights than what you think being married would be like. Infact this opinion seems to be largely amongst those who have never been married, it's like that little girl anxiety over eventually meeting a man you love very dearly and then making a public confirmation of your love, it's not a deed for a man to shut you in a box, taking you out to get drilled until you can't take anymore.

[Tycoon]

I'd just like to point out a few things..

i didn't pull anything out of past societies; all the examples I've brought to the table are things that have happened to me/my closest female friends, otherwise I've responded to somebody else's point

also, i did make a mistake. i forgot to clarify that when i would type men, i meant the men that that specific instance applied to. i am sincerely sorry for this, i always try to clarify that when i begin what i have to say

I did make an error due to tiredness.. i meant to say that Mrs meant Mister's, not that that is what it currently means.

i understand PMS does exist and does cause people to be irritable - but since that does not affect every woman, why is it fair for men to blame women's anger on PMS?

[Boxorino]

A man isn't paid less, neither is a woman, bottom line, age is the difference, so is work performance and variables exclusive to the workplace, gender is not one of them.

uhm
i beg to differ

[Shadow00]

A man isn't paid less, neither is a woman, bottom line, age is the difference, so is work performance and variables exclusive to the workplace, gender is not one of them.

uhm
i beg to differ

Sorry, that's average income, not jobs in specific.
As in, that tells you that MOST women with X education get that much salary, while men get THAT much.
Well Im sorry to break it to you, but since many more women than men work in the public sector -eg schools- they get paid much less than dudes working in the private sector.
ALSO they work less hours as well and actually can demand some months off for pregnancy and stuff while they can skip the army.
So my point is, just because you can't do heavy lifting for 8 hours straight doesn't mean you should get paid like if you were.
I'm sure that if all unemployed women decided to go off working on boats and seeing land every 8-24 months, the pay differences would be shorter.

Also the bachelors degrees crap are well, crap.
Bachelors at what, nuclear physics or nail polishing? Cause the respective jobs pay differently ya know.
Your chart is, if nothing else, non specific. And even if it was, the advantages a woman has on a workplace and off of it outweighs the salary difference.
Now if you'd truly beg to differ, more effort.
Now this is what effort is, according to Georgetown Uni:

1. Petroleum Engineering: 87% male
2. Pharmacy Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration: 48% male
3. Mathematics and Computer Science: 67% male
4. Aerospace Engineering: 88% male
5. Chemical Engineering: 72% male
6. Electrical Engineering: 89% male
7. Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% male
8. Mechanical Engineering: 90% male
9. Metallurgical Engineering: 83% male
10. Mining and Mineral Engineering: 90% male


The ABOVE jobs earn most money. Period.

The BELOW jobs earn the least money. Also period.
1. Counseling Psychology: 74% female
2. Early Childhood Education: 97% female
3. Theology and Religious Vocations: 34% female
4. Human Services and Community Organization: 81% female
5. Social Work: 88% female
6. Drama and Theater Arts: 60% female
7. Studio Arts: 66% female
8. Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% female
9. Visual and Performing Arts: 77% female
10. Health and Medical Preparatory Programs: 55% female

So what we have is a bunch of women thinking they are being paid less while they don't realize that hey, different jobs earn different pays.
And let's not even talk about unemployed women or "artists" that don't even get money most of the times.
So let that sink in and then come back with legit facts.

[Boxorino]

A man isn't paid less, neither is a woman, bottom line, age is the difference, so is work performance and variables exclusive to the workplace, gender is not one of them.

uhm
i beg to differ

Sorry, that's average income, not jobs in specific.
As in, that tells you that MOST women with X education get that much salary, while men get THAT much.
Well Im sorry to break it to you, but since many more women than men work in the public sector -eg schools- they get paid much less than dudes working in the private sector.
ALSO they work less hours as well and actually can demand some months off for pregnancy and stuff while they can skip the army.
So my point is, just because you can't do heavy lifting for 8 hours straight doesn't mean you should get paid like if you were.
I'm sure that if all unemployed women decided to go off working on boats and seeing land every 8-24 months, the pay differences would be shorter.

Also the bachelors degrees crap are well, crap.
Bachelors at what, nuclear physics or nail polishing? Cause the respective jobs pay differently ya know.
Your chart is, if nothing else, non specific. And even if it was, the advantages a woman has on a workplace and off of it outweighs the salary difference.
Now if you'd truly beg to differ, more effort.
Now this is what effort is, according to Georgetown Uni:

1. Petroleum Engineering: 87% male
2. Pharmacy Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration: 48% male
3. Mathematics and Computer Science: 67% male
4. Aerospace Engineering: 88% male
5. Chemical Engineering: 72% male
6. Electrical Engineering: 89% male
7. Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% male
8. Mechanical Engineering: 90% male
9. Metallurgical Engineering: 83% male
10. Mining and Mineral Engineering: 90% male


The ABOVE jobs earn most money. Period.

The BELOW jobs earn the least money. Also period.
1. Counseling Psychology: 74% female
2. Early Childhood Education: 97% female
3. Theology and Religious Vocations: 34% female
4. Human Services and Community Organization: 81% female
5. Social Work: 88% female
6. Drama and Theater Arts: 60% female
7. Studio Arts: 66% female
8. Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% female
9. Visual and Performing Arts: 77% female
10. Health and Medical Preparatory Programs: 55% female

So what we have is a bunch of women thinking they are being paid less while they don't realize that hey, different jobs earn different pays.
And let's not even talk about unemployed women or "artists" that don't even get money most of the times.
So let that sink in and then come back with legit facts.

That's because every time a woman tries to work her way up in the work force, she's always down talked. "Oh, you want to be a doctor? Nah." "Marine biologist? That's hilarious!" "You want to be an Algebra teacher? Nope, leave that to men."

[Shadow00]

Oh really now. That's really funny cause I doubt that even happens.
See there's 33% of women on theological studies and 97% at preschools.
See those are two fields that apparently should have less than 10%, but they don't.
Also doctor jobs are 50-50.
What you can't deal with is that there are MANY women still today who don't care about salary and prefer doing what they love best, which APPARENTLY doesn't really earn money.
You deviated from point anyways so I take that I was right that its the women's fault that they earn less.
The points are spot on and you have to talk about "psychological stress" (by whom really? Most school teachers are female as well, they couldn't possibly be misogynists could they?) during childhood.
It never occurred to you that most women can't handle math the same as most men can't handle theoretical crap cause of the way their brains are structured? Sure there are exceptions but you can see how few there are.
Sorry but this is as clear as it gets, women don't like jobs that have high pays cause they can't live up to their standards.