Munter's Philosophy Corner.

[Munter]

Right Guys, as you may or may not know, part of my degree I'm studying for is in Philosophy. I have become aware recently that many people shy away from or feel like they don't understand philosophy.

So, I'm making this thread to show everyone that philosophy is accessible to all!

Every now and then I'll present a topic to you, one similar to one I've been studying. Although I wont go Into crazy depth It should provide a decent discussion I think.


SO... First topic, Liberty (freedom).


Firstly, what is freedom? People have been asking this since time immemorial, and there is no clear cut definition. Now, If someone came up to you on the street and asked you, "what is freedom?!" You might say

"freedom is the ability to do what you want, when you want, and no one or thing stops you from doing it." Or something like that.

But here is a problem, demonstrated in an example.

Imagine an addict, a man or woman physically addicted to, say, heroin. Now, imagine the addict does not want to be addicted to heroin. They see their money vanishing into their arm, they can't get a job, hold down a relationship and other things people who are not addicted enjoy.

Is his or her taking of Heroin a free action? The addict does not want to take the drug, but can't function without it. But no one or thing is stopping him from taking it. (imagine he has the heroin with him, in a room).

What do we think, guys?

[Hitokiri]

nice munter...
I'll pitch in.

Freedom
It means different things and is illusive, as it changes over time, space and moods.
In fact freedom is an illusion.

What we perceive as freedom is mostly not our own choice, in how far are we free in our own choices? Most of the time it will be nature that decides for us.
(primary needs in psychology)

Other of our choices or things we actually want to do are not allowed (by law, nature, etc.), or perhaps you yourself won't allow it (morals).

Now freedom also means ensuring someone else's freedom.
Now here we face a bit of a problem. As by an act I perform I might endanger your freedom (or even life). That's why there is law.
As some might have realised anarchy is the total absence of rules, for anarchists this equals total freedom. However, in an anarchist world others will harm your freedom too and there's nothing you can do against that.

A totalitarian regime on the other hand will also cause harm to your freedom, that is quite obvious proven to us by history and by the simple fact that it all revolves around power and keeping everyone else down under ones thumb.

my definition of freedom:
The right to do what you want, when you want it, according to your own set of morals, in respect of the law (in a free country) and ensuring others to experience the same freedom you have.

[Noonie]

So yeah, being a 14 year old girl I simply MUST put this in srry srry srry
sure I have freedom, but my mother tells me what I can and cannot wear, decides whether or not I get to wear makeup, tells me how I can have my hair, and tells me how to spend money I earn myself.

And about the heroin thing mintyfresh said, it started as their own free will but then their addiction took the choice out of it

[Munter]

Glad to see people taking part!

So Noncon, would you say you are not free to do as you please? And How does your mum/dad prevent you from doing as you please?

Some argue that only physical barriers constrict our freedom. Threats do not.
I'm not sure how I feel about this argument, but you can see what they are getting at.
If your mum threatens to ground you If you wear that skirt she doesn't like, it may be the case that you are still free to wear it. You could say, in the face of the threat, 'stuff you' and walk out the house wearing it, unless she has shackled you and locked the doors.

But in more extreme circumstances this argument seems a bit harsh. Imagine a man who's family are taken hostage, and is threatened by the kidnappers that if he does not commit terrible crimes his family will suffer. There are people who would still say he is free to disobey the kidnapper's commands, and that the terribly crimes he commit are free actions. But surely not! Take the soldiers forced to work in concentration camps and the like, were they free?

And good contribution Hitokiri! I'll respond a bit later though cause I really need to get ready to meet a P.I right now! (I'll explain later)

Keep it up guys!
New topic in a couple of days, but still, what are your Ideas of freedom?

[katterz]

non non you do have like your own freedom but like the reason your parents are saying what you can and can't wear and the same with make up if because they want you to look your age not older so that you know that some lad may get the wrong idea and take advantage of you and it just shows that your parents are just looking after you but you do have your own freedom because everyone does it liker their own way.

i have the same kinda thing non non when i come home from college parent make sure that i look my age when at home because the amount of young girls that have been taken advantage of because they look like a slut (sorry to say that ) and lads have just taken the advantage of them so yer non non if you can see where i am comming from when your understand ?? !!!


freedom - it likes you can look after youe own life and your in control of it and it up to you what you want to do in ur life because it the freedom of your life you can do want to what but many of times you can't beacause of such laws that stop us in are paths but sometimes that is good and other times maybe it is'nt so good but yer it good that we have freedom but some times it can just go to far .

the whole herion thing yer that man chose to start it due to his freedom but like he can help to stop it but if he thought about it before he started than maybe just maybe he would'nt of started because all his money goes to herion like his life has been taken ova by herion such a sad thing to take ova your life .

[Sylvia]

Unfortunately I only have my iPod, so I will contribute to the next topic.

[Munter]

What you say Katterz is interesting, and it touches on what Hitokiri says.

So, you think that freedom/liberty is the freedom to do what you want to do, once you have given thought to what you really want to do?

Now, this, very loosley is a kind of liberty describes as Positive Liberty. And there are those that argue that agreeing to positive liberty as a conception of liberty can lead to fascism. The argument goes a bit like this.

1) SELF CONTROL: If you control immediate desires (like the addict's desire to take heroin) then you become more free to pursue other ends (like getting a job, a relationship and stuff)

This may lead to

2) Paternalism. Big word, yes. But is basically the idea or parenting. Say you stop the addict from taking heroin, you make it impossible for him to take it. This may be because you know what is best for him. And by controlling that desire of his he may be able to pursue goals that he really wants to, but the heroin prevented. like the job and relationship.

And this may lead to

3) Group Control. I don't know if this is the best way to name it. But it's basically like the idea of self help groups, and can apply to society. If the addict goes to a self help group, where he is prevented taking heroin by the group. The group knows best, you may think. They are ensuring that his "real self" can carry out it's plans, (the job, the relationship). So they make the addict more free by controlling his desire.

And some say this can lead to

4) Fascism. The idea that the state knows best, and sets you free. So when they punish you, they are making you more free, because they are preventing you from just carrying out your immediate desires. And service to the state is the ultimate freedom.


Now I don't know how well I put this, my version of the argument since I'm doing it from memory might be a bit sketchy...

But it could be used to say that Noncon's parents are actually making her more free when they prevent her from wearing makeup and stuff, because she doesn't REALLY want to wear it, she think she does, but she doesn't REALLY want to wear it.

That's the argument, anyway. I'm inclined to think that noncon is being made less free when she is prevented from wearing what she wants and stuff. The question then is does the controlling of her serve a better purpose?

And to go back to the addict case, I would say it is a free action, but he just does not feel free.

Are you still reading this?
Any more thoughts?

[katterz]

yer i can see where you are commin from munter

but like freedom does kinda give ya the right to do what you want to do but than again havin freedom can be wrong and go too far for your own freedom.

like with non non parents i say they have given her freedom in their own way but than again they should give the freedom to dress herslef and like if her parents don't like wats she is wearin they could ask her to change it in some way

but it like wat i said about my parents when i get home i feel like i have no freedom of chosing clothes to wear but at college i do have freedom but i don't know maybe i am wrong ??!!

[Hitokiri]

Munter you are quite right.

But also know that if freedom is limited such as in fascism, people will rebel against it.
So to be honest, I think freedom is somewhere ranging from point 2-3.
As democracy itself should also be seen as group control.
And then I mean the basic idea of democracy as it existed in ancient greece.

But I think that's for another discussion.

[Noonie]

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA
srsly katt katt, noncon and slutty don't belong in the same sentence. If I could I would wear t-shirts and jeans all the time. And mother says I need to look more girly, she won't let me leave the house wearing sweats or jeans. And makeup, Ive only ever used foundation and mascara. She made me wear a dress today for petes sake!! A dress that was too small for me on account of I haven't worn a dress in over a year. Oh and mintyfresh, if I say no to my mother she hits me. And that's never fun.